Jack Dempsey And Firemouth Pair

[ericbrownell]

I need help i recently bought

a jack dempsey and it was to small to sex but now i see it is a female. My firemouth who is about 3

inches long has paired with her. I really dont want them to breed because i dont like to produce

hybrids. I want them both to be happy and i dont have anywhere big enough to separate them, what

would you do? my best idea was to try and find a female firemouth so mabey he would leave the JD

and be with his own kind.

[Dean Hougen]

How big a tank are

they in? What other fish are in there? If it isn't too small and too crowded, buying a female

firemouth does sound like a good plan. However, I'm hesitant to recommend buying more fish

without knowing more about your setup(s), since you mentioned that you don't have anywhere big

enough to separate them. You might consider trading the female dempsey for a female firemouth

instead of adding another fish.


Dean

[ericbrownell]

<!--quoteo

(post=17735:date=Jun 9 2009, 12:08 AM:name=Dean Hougen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dean

Hougen @ Jun 9 2009, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=17735"><

{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>How big a tank are they in? What

other fish are in there? If it isn't too small and too crowded, buying a female firemouth does

sound like a good plan. However, I'm hesitant to recommend buying more fish without knowing

more about your setup(s), since you mentioned that you don't have anywhere big enough to

separate them. You might consider trading the female dempsey for a female firemouth instead of

adding another fish.


Dean</div>
My tank is 55

gallons and there is only 2 small synodontis and one other small male firemouth i think i would

have plenty or room for one but i think your right i dont need a JD. i want to try and line breed

firemouths i got the JD as a gift. So if you know of anyone willing to trade a female firemouth for

a female JD could you let me know. Thanks a lot

[Dean Hougen]

Hmmn. A 55, eh? You

might be able to keep the female JD and add a female firemouth as you were originally thinking. A

55 should be big enough for a pair of firemouths as well as a couple of other relatively small

Central American cichlids, such as Honduran Red Points, but a JD might be pushing it. Hard to say.

There is a lot of variability in JD temperament. They are generally not highly aggressive by

Central American cichlid standards but some are kind of rough.

However, since you have

two male firemouths, even if the larger male did end his inter-species romance and hook up

with a female firemouth, there is a good chance the other firemouth would pair up with the dempsey

and you'd still have your original problem. You could get a male JD to go with the female but

that would really be pushing your luck, as well as interfering with your plans to breed the

firemouths. I have to say that trading the female JD for a female firemouth does sound like the

best plan.

It has been more than a decade since I last went to a fish club meeting in

Michigan but if you let us know whereabouts in Michigan you are, maybe we can help you find a local

club that could help you hook up for some trades.


Dean

[ericbrownell]

<!--quoteo

(post=17755:date=Jun 9 2009, 11:41 PM:name=Dean Hougen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dean

Hougen @ Jun 9 2009, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=17755"><

{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Hmmn. A 55, eh? You might be able

to keep the female JD and add a female firemouth as you were originally thinking. A 55 should be

big enough for a pair of firemouths as well as a couple of other relatively small Central American

cichlids, such as Honduran Red Points, but a JD might be pushing it. Hard to say. There is a lot

of variability in JD temperament. They are generally not highly aggressive by Central American

cichlid standards but some are kind of rough.

However, since you have two male

firemouths, even if the larger male did end his inter-species romance and hook up with a female

firemouth, there is a good chance the other firemouth would pair up with the dempsey and you'd

still have your original problem. You could get a male JD to go with the female but that would

really be pushing your luck, as well as interfering with your plans to breed the firemouths. I

have to say that trading the female JD for a female firemouth does sound like the best plan.

It has been more than a decade since I last went to a fish club meeting in Michigan but if

you let us know whereabouts in Michigan you are, maybe we can help you find a local club that could

help you hook up for some trades.


Dean</div>
ok that sounds really good i mean i would love to keep my JD but for the sake of my firemouths i

will try to trade her. I live in Alpena Michigan the northeast part. I was trying to find someone

else that was going to go to the meeting in Ohio that lives around me and just catch a ride with

them. but if they have a meeting closer to me i would defiantly go. I was even going to try and

start my own meeting group for fish keepers in Alpena. Well thank you so much for all your help i

cant wait to go to my first meeting, that is one of my dreams ha im so obsessed with cichlids its

unbelievable.

[vittleking]

you could get some

eggcrate and make some dividers and split them up so you can keep both. YOu can buy divider clips

on aquabid or send me a PM and I can put you in touch with someone that sells them for $1

each.

[Mrfiremouth]

Vittle has a

great suggestion to keep both fish, however they can still breed through the divider, just ask

Mo!

The ideal situation for the breeding of firemouths is to first write down a plan

and begin a log book.
Then, purchase several smaller tanks for growout.

When

breeding, start with the best specimens that you can and isolate them. If you want to do displays,

then use larger tanks in the 6' range and separate males and females. These fish will battle

for territories so aquascape with lots of caves, nooks, etc. but impartial breeding will not occur.

Many liveberaer breeders display their males and keep females in separate growout tanks known as

"Birthing tanks".

For Firemouth breeding on a larger scale like line

breeding, I suggest the following....

1. Isolate the male and female of choice and keep

them separate for later fixing of traits that you will need them for. Label their tanks Gen 1 Male,

Gen 1 Female
2. Place them together in a 36" long tank to breed with one another, add

aquascape and floating plants and feed high protein foods.
3. Once the fish breed and the fry

are free swimming, return the parents to their individual tanks.(remember to keep these fish

separate, At least the male for sure!)
4. Then grow out the fry and move them to another

growout tank until they 1.5"(at 1.5" pick the 5 best fish! then get rid of the rest)

Change water often to avoid problems with ammonia burns of gill plates and stunting from

pheromones/hormone excretions. Maintain higher pH with the use of araganite sand so that they have

a higher calcium level which will help with fry development.
5. Mark this tank with the fry

Gen 2 group "A"
6. Then breed the parents again(Gen 1 to Gen 1).
7. Then after

they breed and fry are free swimming, remove the parents and keep them isolated again.
8. Grow

out these fry like above until they are 1.5". Then cull like mentioned earlier keeping only

the best looking fish!
9. At this point mark the second batch of fry Gen 2 group

"B"
10. Keep group A and B separate.
11.Continue to grow out both sets until

they are 2".
12. Then, pick the best male from each group and out of those 2 fish pick

the best one again.
13. This is your 2nd Generation breeder!
14. Do the same for the

females, pick a female with th best size, color, and fins! Keep size at this point a priority

as color can be added later.
15. Then breed these two best fish(male/female) and raise the fry

as above.

At this point you have to understand some basics, so I will elaborate.
All the fry in brood Gen 2 Group "A" are brother and sisters.(siblings)
All the

fry in group "B" are brother and sister.
Each group is unique, even though they came

from the same parents.
Group A & B compared to each other is referred to as

"cousins". They are not brother/sister siblings even though they came from the same

parents. Keep them separate!
Remember this.

Also, at every stage if deformities

are showing up, scrap the whole brood and start over. Deformities will keep breeding into future

fish! It is important that you have good stock!

Now, you have the original

parents isolated. Keep them, you will need them soon.
You also have breed you best gen 2 male

and female to get gen 3 fry.
These fry are important!
We are going to need you to

grow out these 3rd generation fry and pick the best female and male again.
Once the best male

and female of the Generation 3 fish have grown out to 2" pick the best female and male and

seperate them.

Now some more data, if by this time you have some really red fins or nice

fin trailers showing up or some deep blues, this is were we are going to fix the trait so that in

future generations they will breed with these traits also. It is called fixing. This is the

technique I use.

Take the 2" gen 3 male and breed it to the original Gen Female.
Take the 2" gen 3 female and breed it to the Gen 1 Male.
Then take the fry of both of

these breedings and separate them and mark them Gen 4 group "A" & "B"
Then grow these out, pick the best and and breed them together(group A & [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img]
These will be generation 5 fish with fixed traits!

This

process will just have consumed 5 years of your life! Congratulations!

From this

point on, the older generation fish from Gen 1 through 4 are not needed and you can now continue to

breed the Gen 5 fish. However, an outcross is needed to avoid deformities/mutations!

This is a whole new strategy that needs to be employed NOW!
So, take your 5th Gen best

fish and isolate the Male and female, then go shopping!
Look for the best Firemouths that

you can find and this new Male and new Female will breed to your existing Best fish.
The fry

from these fish will be gen 6 OC(out cross)

Grow these fish out and breed the best male

and female from gen 6 OC to the gen 5 Male and female to get a fixed trait gen 7 fry.

OK, now it is the year 2016! If we survive 2012 [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] , you will be having some really gorgeous show stoppers!
Now just

continue breeding these fish best to best in single fry batches(no need for cousin breedings) until

gen 11.
At Gen 11 outcross again!

You can go on and on and on like this until

you completely change the way the fish looks from selectively picking the breeders.

These principals could be used in a species preservation program with out crosses every 3rd

generation using breeders that best represent the wild form! So take head CARES people on how

you breed long term. Network through the program for out cross fish so that you stay genetical

variable, rather than fixed. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

WOW! What a

mouthful!!!!

If anyone can help improve this strategy, by all means do

so as I am no scientist. I learned much of this through the writings of fellow ACA member Dr.

Joanne Norton! I wish she was still alive to talk to and ask questions to about these

things!!!

[Dean Hougen]

Alpena, huh? The

clubs I'm familiar with in Michigan are in Detroit and Kalamazoo so they are not exactly next

door to you. Then again, you're not exactly next door to much, are you? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

I do know there is also a club in Grand Rapids which I suppose is at

least closer than Kalamazoo!

Maybe you could start with one of those clubs and see

if they can get you in touch with people closer to home:

http://greaterdetroitaquariumsociety.com/
http://www.swmas.org/
http://www.grandvalleyaquariumclub.org/

By the way, I think dividers

are okay as a last resort, and I do tell people about them in my presentations and occasionally use

them myself when I'm in a jam, but I think you and your fish are much better off if the fish

are kept in appropriate sized tanks. So, you might want to keep one on hand but I would discourage

using them as a regular part of your husbandry practices.


Dean