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View Full Version : What Constitutes a Wild Fish?


chc
02-06-2011, 11:38 AM
It seems like a simple question, but when you think of it more closely it becomes less clear.

What exactly does constitute a "wild" fish? Obviously something you net out of its native waters is wild, but are all the fish we buy as wild actually being collected in such a manner?

For example, if a handful of a given species are netted and then brought to a nearby hatchery (i.e. one that is in the same country as the fish's wild habitat) for the purpose of breeding, are the resulting fry wild?

In a second example, if those same wild collected fish are bred on farms outside their native country it seems we would refer to the fry as F-1 (the commonly used term for first generation from the wild).
We all know many ACA members who collect their own fry or young specimens, take them back home, end up with a pair of two of breeders, and then sell the resulting offspring correctly (it seems) as F-1's.

In either case, the effects of natural selection are not being allowed to play out. That's a fine point and perhaps irrelevant, surely, but why would fish that are farm raised "in-country" be considered wild (if they are indeed being considered as such) while those raised in another country are being called F-1's?

This question always come up for me whenever I ship a large fish (which I'm preparing to do right now). The shipping costs for animals over a certain size can be prohibitive to some buyers, so it seems that the importation of dozens of large specimens wouldn't be economically viable to most wholesalers/dealers. To make it viable, they'd have to be able to sell large specimens for a price that includes collection costs, international travel costs, receiving and turnover costs, and the cost for the animal itself. Add to that the final consumer's requirement to pay another shipping cost (if bought directly from the distributor) or a healthy profit margin PLUS a portion of an additional shipping cost (if from a LFS) and the economics just don't make sense to me. I'm paying $70 for ten pounds of wings for the Super Bowl party tonight, but I can get a foot long animal from another part of the world for roughly the same money?

On the other hand, shipping dozens to hundreds of fry and small specimens is comparatively inexpensive. Understanding that the genetic makeup of a wild fish is the same whether it's big or small, there'd be a huge economic advantage to a distributor to do the bulk their importing while the fish are quite small. Yet, it seems there is an endless supply of large wild fish available nowadays. Are these fish being imported as small animals that are subsequently raised to large size? I'm not talking about the odd lunker that was imported last week and carries a $200, $300, $400, $500+ price tag, I'm talking about the fact that my LFS can order a host of wild-caught species at any time for less than the price of a tank of gas.

Case in point, I recently purchased a 17" cichlid and had it delivered to my door for around $200. That INCLUDED about $50 shipping, a healthy profit for the seller, and all his related importation and housing costs. I was told the fish was wild and caught a "couple of weeks ago" (though no specific answers were available to my questions). I don't really care if the fish is wild or not, I was looking for a specifically sized specimen of a given species, and I'm under no illusions that I'm protecting some bloodline or holding the future preservation of the species in my tanks. The cost for the animal was worth it to me as opposed to the time invloved in raising one up from just a few inches. But, if I HAD been interested in obtaining a giant wild-caught animal, I'd have been suspicious of what I considered to be too low of a price for all that was involved.

Those of us who've been deeply involved in the hobby for a decade or two (or three, or...) know the basics of farm propagation, pond raising, wholesaling and distribution, etc. It's the specifics of the importation of large wild animals for seemingly little money that begs some questions...

So, what exactly IS a wild fish? Any constructive input would be welcomed!

jgentry
02-06-2011, 12:08 PM
Great topic Chris. For me if the fish is wild that individual fish has to be netted out of native waters. Creating a breeding pond in a native country does not produce wild fish in my opinion. They are not subjected to all of the rigors or surviving the wild. It's no different then farm raising trout at that point.

I have also thought about how so many wild fish arrive as adults and for reasonable prices. Either they are collecting whole spawns in the wild when they are tiny fry and growing them up in tanks (which kind of defeats the purpose of a wild fish in my opinion as once again they are not tested by wild situations. Or these fish are simply farm raised and being called wild. I have no idea how you can have a pond of wild fish and still be able to call everything you pull out wild. How do you prevent some fry from not being removed and growing into adults that pollute the gene pool with F1 breeding stock?

To me I just like nice fish and that's all I worry about. I have several really nice fish that were sold to me as wild that I feel are probably Florida wild if you know what I mean. Doesn't mean they are not pure and not outstanding fish though. I keep up with were they came from and make sure to pass what I know on to anyone that gets fry from me and that's about all I can do about it. It makes me question the fish and the sellers some but at the same time I'm really happy to have such nice fish available for a price I can actually afford:).

So, did this 17" fish happen to be a large Dovii:D??????

chc
02-06-2011, 12:23 PM
Hah! Yes, JD.....another one. This time it's for a friend who's "replacing" his daughter's wet-pet! My bet is she'll be able to tell the difference!

I'm with you on your comments about "Florida wild." As long as I get what I expect that's usually enough for me, so there is an advantage of ordering from someone with a "fixed" breeding population. There is an element of deception that doesn't sit well with me if those Florida fish farms are selling pond fish as wild though. Buyer beware I suppose.

Dean Hougen
02-06-2011, 3:21 PM
... I'm paying $70 for ten pounds of wings for the Super Bowl party tonight...

You must be hungry!


I agree that a fish bred in a pond or vat near its natural waters is not a wild-caught fish and should not be sold as such. In addition to what has been said above, I would add that selling something as something it is not makes it difficult for buyers to spend their money conscientiously. For example, in the latest BB (261), Ad makes the point that Pseudotropheus saulosi is becoming scarce in the wild, likely due to over-collection. As such, a conscientious buyer might prefer to buy specimens captive bred in a pond or vat next to the lake. However, if he or she can't tell what the "wild" label means, how can he or she behave conscientiously?

Unfortunately, people often intentionally mislabel fish in order to make money or gain recognition. It is not unheard of for people to breed a new strain of fish in captivity, then pretend that it is a newly discovered wild morph, subspecies, or species. ("But, uh, I can't tell you where it is from because, uh, then someone else might collect them too.")

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against making money or gaining recognition. It is the dishonesty that I mind.


Dean

Jimcormier
02-06-2011, 7:19 PM
I lived in florida up untill last year and florida wild means that the fish were cought out in the rivers and lakes in florida and not from a pond in a fish farm. There are many ciclids living in the wild in florida. If a farm is spawning them in their pond and selling them as wild they are being dishonest.

chc
02-06-2011, 7:40 PM
Good posts guys. What part of Florida Jim? I lived in Ponte Vedra for years.

Dean, I completely agree with you (especially the hungry part --- headed back for wing number 27 next!). The inability to get a collection point from some vendors has been a sore point for a few of us, and in one particular case after quite a bit of effort to get the specifics on one "new" species that very excuse you noted was used by the seller (as if I'm hustling off to Central America with a printout of GoogleMaps and a net!).

Jimcormier
02-06-2011, 8:01 PM
I was in St. Petersburg for 12 years now Im in mass with 4 feet of snow.

tjudy
02-06-2011, 10:55 PM
The shipping costs for animals over a certain size can be prohibitive to some buyers, so it seems that the importation of dozens of large specimens wouldn't be economically viable to most wholesalers/dealers. To make it viable, they'd have to be able to sell large specimens for a price that includes collection costs, international travel costs, receiving and turnover costs, and the cost for the animal itself.

Shipping is the most expensive part of importing fish. The cost of the animals themselves is minimal. Therefore the exporters want to pack as many fish in the box as possible... to the point where they do not want to discuss shipping fewer fish (which would be better for the animals). What they ships is want they catch. When it comes to cichlids (at least from West Africa) the time of year when the fish can be easily netted in commercial numbers results in the fish being young adults. Later in the season it is mostly larger adults. Most resellers want sexable fish. Fish stores what fish that are large enough to look valuable. Very small fry are not marketable immediately and importers/stores want to turn them over quickly. Plus, small cichlids do not hold up well to shipping stress. Most are starved for weeks before they make it to a retailer's tanks.

Traveling aquarists want to find fry if possible. We can put a dozen in a breather bag. When we grow them up and breed them we can distribute the fry as F1. We can also distribute extra fish that we grew up as wild... but tank-raised (which is a huge advantage).

Personally, I try not to buy wild unless it is the only way that I can get the species. And then I consider the potential impact of my purchase. If I buy six wild pairs, then many more were collected and shipped to the importer (in the case of Pelvicachromis the number is usually 120 in a box). How many died before getting to the exporter, enroute or in the importer's tanks? If the collectors were very efficient, did all 120 come from a small section of stream? Did they collect enough fish for one box, or for ten boxes? For every box we bring to the USA, how many are going to Asia and Europe (more!)? These are the things that I worry about when I ask an importer to find fish for me, and on more than one occasion I have chosen not to buy a species because I am not comfortable with having to buy wild.

I do not take the decision to buy wild fish lightly. Right now there are only a few species of fish in my entire collection that are wild caught that I purchased. I have a few that I collected myself, but I know that the impact of doing that was minimal.

With the way the laws are changing, I can envision a scenario (which I hope does not come to pass) when the commercial importation of fish is stopped. If that happens I hope that individuals will still be able to go catch a few fish and bring them back. If that is also made illegal, then all the fish we have in the hobby is what we will have.