A sympton of what ails this hobby:

[chc]

http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.productDetail&productID=10646&CICHLID-TRIMACULATUS-MED&Amphilophus-trimaculatus.html


Pretty disappointing for one of the largest suppliers of our hobby.

[chc]

And a nice "community fish"...

http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.productDetail&productID=10797&CICHLID-DOVII-REG&Nandopsis-dovii.html

[Cichlidnewbie23]

Thats why you research before you buy i guess haha. That is kind of a bummer though.

[jgentry]

http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.productDetail&productID=10646&CICHLID-TRIMACULATUS-MED&Amphilophus-trimaculatus.html


Pretty disappointing for one of the largest suppliers of our hobby.

I never knew trimacs were white. Or from the rift lakes:rolleyes:.

[jgentry]

And a nice "community fish"...

http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.productDetail&productID=10797&CICHLID-DOVII-REG&Nandopsis-dovii.html

If I'd known I could keep a Dovi in a 55g community tank I would have gotten one a long time ago. And here I was told they needed a 265+g tank.

The funny part is they have minimum tank 55g, and right below that they say the fish can get 24". Maybe this is were petsmart gets there fish care info from.

[Mikeinco]

Those descriptions sound just like those on the tanks at Petsmart and Petco. I always get a chuckle when I go in those stores and read whats on the tanks. Also I didn't know Trimacs were that color. Maybe stressed? Really stressed.

[jgentry]

Those descriptions sound just like those on the tanks at Petsmart and Petco. I always get a chuckle when I go in those stores and read whats on the tanks. Also I didn't know Trimacs were that color. Maybe stressed? Really stressed.

New strain, albino trimacs:lol:.

[chc]

Keep in mind, this farm almost certainly supplies a LFS near you!

That's why I'm more than willing to pay a premium for fish from a small handful of trusted online vendors and friends. I'd rather pay for shipping than support any business that doesn't even understand (or care?) about its products.

[Cichlidnewbie23]

One of my favorite things to do is to buy fish from places like petsmart and petco cuz i feel bad for them. I research them and know their actual requierments of course so after getting them in good health i set up a tank for them so they live out their days in happiness :). I actually got my bolivians from a petland. they were the two smallest ones but now theyre both 2 inches and look like theyre going to breed!

[Mrfiremouth]

Did anyone contact Seagrest Farms and try to correct their published data?

[chc]

Did anyone contact Seagrest Farms and try to correct their published data?

As for me, no. I've attempted to communicate with them in the past via email to no avail. Now, I don't see it as anyone's responsibility but theirs to make sure their info is correct. They clearly haven't made much of an effort in that regard, but they surely want to profit nonetheless.

I understand they've got some relationships and have donated fish to some shows and clubs but that's not my concern. I didn't intend this as any sort of particular slam -- it just is what it is! If sellers want to avoid such situations, they should make a better effort to manage their materials and responsiveness to customers.


P.S.= If anyone wants to contact them and allow them to make corrections, I won't be upset if this thread is ultimately deleted. ; )

[Mrfiremouth]

I personally think they worded those descriptions that way on purpose. They want to sell fish to the stores, so they say what they need to sell them. Just like the box stores market the public consumer with misinformation on their tags.

It's all about the buck. I only asked cuz I was curious if they replied.

[chc]

Haha! If they did it on purpose, that would be worse than just being ignorant!

[mikeg2929]

How crapping on an industry leader helps move the ACA's agenda along.

[Narwhal72]

I order fish periodically from Segrest and have always had the best service and excellent quality from them. Their lists are very extensive and even though they carry some fish that I personally don't agree with, I have no problem continuing to order with them.

Their founder Alan Segrest is one of the pioneers in the industry and has forgotten more about tropical fishkeeping than I will ever know.

Andy

[chc]

Oooo. Sorry for expecting them to exhibit a basic understanding of their own products...

(Now where is that sarcasm smiley?)

[chc]

You know, the more I think of it, feel free to delete the thread if it upsets anyone. It won't bother me in the least.

But at least accept the fact that there is practically zero vendor criticism on most sites. Stifling such talk for "PC" purposes or just to maintain ad revenue streams to site owners doesn't serve the hobby either.

[slimbolen99]

The true sign of a leader is not solely pointing out a problem, but also providing a solution.

[chc]

Are you kidding me? C'mon! You guys take yourselves too seriously.

OK. Here's a solution. I nominate Brian to send them an email with a list of corrections to their species section. As a "leader" I'm far too busy to do it myself!

Hahahah! Gawd, I didn't think this was such a big deal. Just making an observation!

[slimbolen99]

Tell you what Chris. I'll help you go through their list and provide solutions. I don't know all the species they've listed, but I will help you if that's something you are willing to take the time to do.

[chc]

Tell you what Chris. I'll help you go through their list and provide solutions. I don't know all the species they've listed, but I will help you if that's something you are willing to take the time to do.

A dare, huh? OK..... You do the legwork and make the contacts/requests, and I'll write 20 species profiles for them (perhaps more....but I'll start with 20).

[chc]

I think I'd start with this "Amphilophus citrinellum" profile:

http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.productDetail&productID=18733&CICHLID-PARROT-RED-HEAD-MED&Amphilophus-citrinellum.html

They seem to have it mixed up with THIS "Amphilophus citrinellum"...

http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.productDetail&productID=10966&CICHLID-PARROT-JELLYBEAN-MIXED-REG&Amphilophus-citrinellum.html

I'd need help with this Microgeophagus pterophyllum though..... Never kept them:
http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.productDetail&productID=19673&CICH-RAM-ANGEL-HYBRID-BLUE-REG&Microgeophagus-x-pterophyllum.html

[chc]

.......and I know nothing about Barbus sp. 'Tattoo':

http://www.segrestfarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.productDetail&productID=19028&BARB-TINFOIL-TATTOOED-MED&Barbus-schwanfeldi--albino-.html

(I think that's probably enough to make my point... Sorry for offending anyone.)

[Mrfiremouth]

There is nothing wrong with calling attention to how the Industry really works. Customer service is important, and no one said that you do not get what you order at Segrest. But, professionals should at least produce factual data.

I also don't see this as bashing. No one said not to use this facility. We are merely pointing out that it isn't just one bad profile. I have dealt with lots of wholesalers over the years. FW guys usually give you what you order. SW guys tend to substitute after payment for products of equal value. Some now do Online WYSIWYG purchases. However I have ordered corals and got 2 ribbon eels before, and I have ordered many specific corals by name and price and then recieved completely different corals as substitutes. Under most of the purchasing agreements, substitution is acceptable upon live delivery/no DOA.

Bottom line: wholesalers need to move their products.

[Mikeinco]

Ok, maybe I'm missing something here? Is that a trimac or not? It doesn't look like a trimac to me. Is there something wrong with calling out a vendor for posting the wrong picture and the wrong info on the fish? Looks like the crap i see at the LFS.

[fishmaven]

I think Chris has some valid points here.

IMO, an importer/jobber/fish farm/wholesaler should attempt to pass on good info to his/her customers. As Andy has pointed out Alan Segrest's farm has been around for quite a while but things have changed at his farm and elsewhere. I believe their market is providing fish delivered to the front door of the purchaser, regardless of the size of the purchase. That's a market few are willing to take on. Most providers want the big accounts that make their purchases frequently, shipping from airport to airport. Local sources of fish want to be close to their customers NOT the airport. Providing arranged transport to the front door is time consuming and a hassle.

Few people pushing fish take the time to provide photos or references (even here in our TP) let alone profile info. Some of the profiles are bound to be wrong unless the task is assigned to their better fish people. To me that would be a poor business solution… too much time… too little return.

This thread is, however, a learning tool for us. Providing photos is one thing but when profile data is going to be provided, it should be done with more accuracy. As someone that used to buy a lot of fish, if the fish they send is the one represented in the photos, I'd have been very happy. I didn't/don't like surprises that cost me money. Short counts, sick fish, and receiving the wrong fish happen, even with the big guys. Providing smaller orders to more stores probably increases the frequency of mistakes happening. If Segrest's customers continue to order from them, it must occur less than we'd imagine, or represent a small portion of the orders.

FWIW, I think the first photo is an African member of the Hap or peacock complex, probably a hybrid. I don't remember seeing SAs with egg spots.
Dan

[chc]

Thanks Dan. That was my basic point. What would happen if you ordered a Sony DVD player from Best Buy but got a Sanyo VHS? Best Buy's an industry leader too, but I doubt anyone would stand up to defend that!

Now, the tattooed, dyed, and intentionally deformed fish they sell is another issue completely.......... Segrest is an industry leader in that regard too (unfortunately). Is it appropriate or inappropriate to criticize THOSE practices on the ACA forum? Do we just look the other way?

[pitdogg2]

I never knew trimacs were white. Or from the rift lakes:rolleyes:.

well now you do:D
never too late to get your learn on .....

[dreday]

LOL i must have missed this thread before. Seagrest is just down the road from me and i purchase fish from them every other week.

They move fish like nobodies business. but there are a lot of times when i go in and check the list, see something i want, go to the tanks and BAM no way in hell im getting that.

but that is what happens when you have such a large facility. so much comes in from farmers and from overseas you just dont know what to expect.
they just keep the name(common or not) and sell it out. they dont have time to verify or id the fish. most are pretty easy, mix lace angels, mixed peacocks, labs, mollies ect. but then you get to the import stuff, and fhewwww.... you just dont know.

sometimes the fish have completely different names, some stuff that is just made up.

Anyone ever heard of a 'spangled cichlid'? well if you google it you get a description from seagrest. but not much else. its real name is limnochromis auritus a cute little tang odd ball. i asked one of the sales rep who was in the warehouse and he did not know. he went to look it up and came back with the standard desc. so i googled it on my phone and he went to his pc. we got the same thing. i did not end up buying them just because they could have been mislabeled. maybe they were the right fish, but i was not willing to risk it.

so my point is that they get so many things that it is nearly impossible to keep up with. BUT if that is your job you should know or at least try to find out what is coming in, at least to sell it. just telling someone it is a cichlid does not really help sell it.

i always laugh at the names and list of the fish there. most of the stuff is really good, but i usually am able to have it hand picked. if you call in and order you may not always get what it says.

but for descriptions on the site, well thats just laziness. unless they are trying to hit the newbies and get more fish in their tanks that should not be there, they should have proper descriptions.

i will be going by this week and i will ask a rep about it, just mention that i saw a the trimac had the wrong pic and see what they say. will post back later this week.

[chc]

well now you do:D
never too late to get your learn on .....


That made me laugh! Hahaha!



Andres, good stuff. Can't wait to hear what you find out!

[fishmaven]

You can't legislate or dictate taste. If those fish weren't selling to their customers repeatedly, Segrest and others would quit buying them.

The issue of painted glassfish has come up here previously. If I remember right, the biggest complaint was the overcharging for the fish, $3.99 vs $1.99. That made it seem to me that there wouldn't be as much of an uproar if the fish were priced at the same price as the fish without the paint. Painted glass seem to survive the ordeal fine. The paint just eventually sloughs off.

Here's a question for you… If you owned a store and your customers told you they wanted painted glassfish and if you didn't have them they'd buy from your closest competitor, what would you do (??), bring them in or send them to the other store?

Now, what if they were your best customers?

OR, if you were the manager and the owner told you to order them, would you order them or quit??
Dan



… Now, the tattooed, dyed, and intentionally deformed fish they sell is another issue completely.......... Segrest is an industry leader in that regard too (unfortunately). Is it appropriate or inappropriate to criticize THOSE practices on the ACA forum? Do we just look the other way?

[Matt Quinn]

Dreday said:
"but that is what happens when you have such a large facility. so much comes in from farmers and from overseas you just dont know what to expect.
they just keep the name(common or not) and sell it out. they dont have time to verify or id the fish."

...but this is precisely what ails the hobby: lack of responsibility for verifying what fish are.

Farms label stuff wrong...and pass on the wrong name to stores...who pass on wrong names to aquarists...who breed the fish with what the fish might or could be...and sell the (hybrid) fry as pure something else...and you buy a bag of them in an auction...

That they're big and can't - or don't - properly label what they sell is not OK.

Matt

[fishmaven]

Dreday said:
"but that is what happens when you have such a large facility. so much comes in from farmers and from overseas you just dont know what to expect.
they just keep the name(common or not) and sell it out. they dont have time to verify or id the fish."

...but this is precisely what ails the hobby: lack of responsibility for verifying what fish are.

Farms label stuff wrong...and pass on the wrong name to stores...who pass on wrong names to aquarists...who breed the fish with what the fish might or could be...and sell the (hybrid) fry as pure something else...and you buy a bag of them in an auction...

That they're big and can't - or don't - properly label what they sell is not OK.

Matt
OK. Let's try to be fair to farms and other outlets. If they are producing their own products they should have adequate time to label and profile everything they sell. If they import or obtain their stock from importers this becomes more difficult. Here's the scenario:

Holding facility of 1000 tanks- 600 filled and ready for new stock. 400 with existing stock from previous week. Monday morning- pickup new shipment of 500+ bags of new fish. The shipment is delayed at the airport, they can only find 60 boxes of the 83 box shipment. Rather than make the 50+ mile return trip to the hatchery right away the driver is ordered to stay for the next flight. (If there are multiple drivers, one returns to the hatchery with everything he can carry, the other remains on site.) This time the rest of the shipment is on that next flight OR someone comes in from the dock and asks why there are fish boxes with the flowers in the cooler.

Driver speeds to the hatchery with the completed shipment. It takes a while to put up 500+ bags of fish,even with an experienced team.

That evening, as the new arrivals are being treated for problems or potential problems someone sits down with the invoice and starts to price the new fish. Somehow one of the invoice pages got wet and some of the items are unreadable. Emails are sent to the shipper and items must be verified by sight.

Late that night hatchery is being cleaned up, removing boxes and trash from the sales floor, in preparations for Tuesday's walk-ins, while someone attempts to write the names and prices of new arrivals on stock tanks, compiling a list of tank numbers and the stock and prices of the inventory. Stock list is printed and emailed to clients and sales staff.

Tuesday morning , 3 hours prior to opening for walk-ins, staff is doing dead fish check and adding meds to tanks that need them. Freight office calls, can't take someone's check for a shipment. The shipper refuses to pay return freight and they want to know if you'll take them for the cost of the freight. They're going to send you a copy of the enclosed invoice but it's sent from someone you've never done business with. One staffer is mopping the floors, trying to get up the worst of the spills.

Tuesday morning 2 hours before opening for walk-ins: emails have been received from shipper with incomplete details of the shipment leaving 5 items with no names or prices on their tanks. Telephone sales staff walks the floor to check out new stock. They want to know why they don't have names and prices on those tanks. (Even if you know what they are you still can't price them.)

One hour before opening several walk-ins have already arrived and are grousing about having to wait until opening to start shopping, "I've got stuff to do!", is their complaint.

15 minutes later you give in and let the early arrivals into the hatchery. Some grab a stock sheets and clipboards. Others start out using a notebook and post-it notes, rushing to cherrypick the new arrivals. By opening it's a madhouse, some want their fish bagged immediately and others have collected around the unlabeled tanks wanting to order them.

An hour after opening you best sales person shows up, (got drunk the night before and overslept… again). What do you do(?) he sells 3-4 times what any of the others do. He wants the unlabeled tanks for himself to offer to his customers, says he'll track down costs and names himself. You can't let him because too many people have already seen the fish and THEY want them.

This is how it really goes, omitting the cup of coffee that got spilled on the bagging table, 2 customers that can't stand each other and have somehow ended up on the same aisle, someone wants you to hold their check until next Monday and the child of one of your customers that locked himself in the bathroom. You STILL haven't called the freight office back. It's Tuesday; not quite noon and your week is just one day old.

BTW, if it's a smaller shop you've still got the same problems but with fewer workers to handle them. Often the owner or manager are left to solve the problems and can't give the proper attention to their customers that is expected by them. And so it goes…
Dan

[chc]

Business is business. There's no room for excuses. If you put it out there (i.e. advertise on the net) you have to face the music. The CUSTOMER decides almost everything, especially his own opinion of your professionalism. They don't and shouldn't care about your challenges.

Dan, back to your question from a few posts up. Having run several businesses before, I've had to face those sorts of decisions quite a bit. Given your choices, as an owner/operator there's no way I'd let money or competitive concerns sway my moral compass. There's not even a choice in my mind. As an employee......well, that would be a tougher decision, but at least I'd start looking for another job! I just don't buy the "competitive necessity" line of thinking...


Injecting color into fish to make a buck doesn't sound like something that would be supported by an "industry leader." Perhaps a better suggestion of cruelty in the "creation" of fish would be the exposure of fish to nearly toxic levels of heavy metals in an intentional effort to deform fry. Or how about that Oscar with the lip-ring on that "other" site?

[fishmaven]

Business is business. There's no room for excuses. If you put it out there (i.e. advertise on the net) you have to face the music. The CUSTOMER decides almost everything, especially his own opinion of your professionalism. They don't and shouldn't care about your challenges.

Dan, back to your question from a few posts up. Having run several businesses before, I've had to face those sorts of decisions quite a bit. Given your choices, as an owner/operator there's no way I'd let money or competitive concerns sway my moral compass. There's not even a choice in my mind. As an employee......well, that would be a tougher decision, but at least I'd start looking for another job! I just don't buy the "competitive necessity" line of thinking...


Injecting color into fish to make a buck doesn't sound like something that would be supported by an "industry leader." Perhaps a better suggestion of cruelty in the "creation" of fish would be the exposure of fish to nearly toxic levels of heavy metals in an intentional effort to deform fry. Or how about that Oscar with the lip-ring on that "other" site?
I commend you and your "moral compass". Unfortunately, from my experience, there's often a lot of gray between the black and white.

Advertising on the net is just another aspect of the fish business. Typically though, walk-thru traffic would probably suck up most of your better stock unless you eliminated the walk-thru trade. IME, internet and TP sellers are after a market that's not available locally.

To me, shipping is more of a hassle than walk-ins.
Dan

[notho2000]

Dan,I don't mean to detract from the intent of your message, but your rather graphic and detailed description of the fish farm outlet could certainly provide the basis for a new TV reality show. Think it would be a tremendous hit LOL.
Jim

[chc]

Dan,I don't mean to detract from the intent of your message, but your rather graphic and detailed description of the fish farm outlet could certainly provide the basis for a new TV reality show. Think it would be a tremendous hit LOL.
Jim


Hahaha!

[fishmaven]

Dan,I don't mean to detract from the intent of your message, but your rather graphic and detailed description of the fish farm outlet could certainly provide the basis for a new TV reality show. Think it would be a tremendous hit LOL.
Jim
It's the voice of someone that's been there and done that, both FW and SW. Most have never had the experience.
Dan

[chc]

I should say, I don't dismiss the behind the scenes complications Dan speaks about. Certainly it's not a simple process. Perhaps my comments came across a bit more storngly than I had intended.

[notho2000]

I'm wondering if this isn't a case of certain aspects of a large business "falling between the cracks. Most businesses are profit driven and if this "problem" (which is certainly fixable) is not relly resulting in a negative consequence, what motivation is there for them to "get their act together"? I for one believe that if it's fixable, fix it. Simplistic thinking on my part? Maybe But in this day and age where the economy demands the best effort on the part of those trying to survive, something is amiss here. I know that it may be a small part of what they do and I I certainly know where you're coming from but to excuse the problem, to say it just" comes with the territory" doesn't sit well with me.

[dreday]

I'm wondering if this isn't a case of certain aspects of a large business "falling between the cracks. Most businesses are profit driven and if this "problem" (which is certainly fixable) is not relly resulting in a negative consequence, what motivation is there for them to "get their act together"? I for one believe that if it's fixable, fix it. Simplistic thinking on my part? Maybe But in this day and age where the economy demands the best effort on the part of those trying to survive, something is amiss here. I know that it may be a small part of what they do and I I certainly know where you're coming from but to excuse the problem, to say it just" comes with the territory" doesn't sit well with me.


thats pretty much it, it doesnt hurt them so they ignore it until it does.

[Matt Quinn]

Despite all of the potential opportunities for mix-ups, I just don't find it to be a valid excuse for vendors not to be held responsible for selling what they say that they're selling.

Imagine if the fish were food fish: You order a box of tilapia filets and you get salmon. "Sorry label got wet and we got confused," ain't gonna cut it to the restaurant that ordered the tilapia.

Matt

OK. Let's try to be fair to farms and other outlets. If they are producing their own products they should have adequate time to label and profile everything they sell. If they import or obtain their stock from importers this becomes more difficult. Here's the scenario:

Holding facility of 1000 tanks- 600 filled and ready for new stock. 400 with existing stock from previous week. Monday morning- pickup new shipment of 500+ bags of new fish. The shipment is delayed at the airport, they can only find 60 boxes of the 83 box shipment. Rather than make the 50+ mile return trip to the hatchery right away the driver is ordered to stay for the next flight. (If there are multiple drivers, one returns to the hatchery with everything he can carry, the other remains on site.) This time the rest of the shipment is on that next flight OR someone comes in from the dock and asks why there are fish boxes with the flowers in the cooler.

Driver speeds to the hatchery with the completed shipment. It takes a while to put up 500+ bags of fish,even with an experienced team.

That evening, as the new arrivals are being treated for problems or potential problems someone sits down with the invoice and starts to price the new fish. Somehow one of the invoice pages got wet and some of the items are unreadable. Emails are sent to the shipper and items must be verified by sight.

Late that night hatchery is being cleaned up, removing boxes and trash from the sales floor, in preparations for Tuesday's walk-ins, while someone attempts to write the names and prices of new arrivals on stock tanks, compiling a list of tank numbers and the stock and prices of the inventory. Stock list is printed and emailed to clients and sales staff.

Tuesday morning , 3 hours prior to opening for walk-ins, staff is doing dead fish check and adding meds to tanks that need them. Freight office calls, can't take someone's check for a shipment. The shipper refuses to pay return freight and they want to know if you'll take them for the cost of the freight. They're going to send you a copy of the enclosed invoice but it's sent from someone you've never done business with. One staffer is mopping the floors, trying to get up the worst of the spills.

Tuesday morning 2 hours before opening for walk-ins: emails have been received from shipper with incomplete details of the shipment leaving 5 items with no names or prices on their tanks. Telephone sales staff walks the floor to check out new stock. They want to know why they don't have names and prices on those tanks. (Even if you know what they are you still can't price them.)

One hour before opening several walk-ins have already arrived and are grousing about having to wait until opening to start shopping, "I've got stuff to do!", is their complaint.

15 minutes later you give in and let the early arrivals into the hatchery. Some grab a stock sheets and clipboards. Others start out using a notebook and post-it notes, rushing to cherrypick the new arrivals. By opening it's a madhouse, some want their fish bagged immediately and others have collected around the unlabeled tanks wanting to order them.

An hour after opening you best sales person shows up, (got drunk the night before and overslept… again). What do you do(?) he sells 3-4 times what any of the others do. He wants the unlabeled tanks for himself to offer to his customers, says he'll track down costs and names himself. You can't let him because too many people have already seen the fish and THEY want them.

This is how it really goes, omitting the cup of coffee that got spilled on the bagging table, 2 customers that can't stand each other and have somehow ended up on the same aisle, someone wants you to hold their check until next Monday and the child of one of your customers that locked himself in the bathroom. You STILL haven't called the freight office back. It's Tuesday; not quite noon and your week is just one day old.

BTW, if it's a smaller shop you've still got the same problems but with fewer workers to handle them. Often the owner or manager are left to solve the problems and can't give the proper attention to their customers that is expected by them. And so it goes…
Dan

[notho2000]

I know that not getting the fish you expected isn't life threatening, but I'd hate to think of a parallel situation in the food industry. I have relatives that will go into anaphylactic shock if they so much as taste food with peanuts in it or freshwater fish. A sloppy or don't care attitude in this case leads to lawsuits or worse. Then again, if you don't like what the fish farm is doing, you can take your business elsewhere. It's a 'cost-benefit' situation, isn't it. A minor inconvenience for a greater good. That's the way most things are in life. Having said that, a philosopher I am not!
Jim

[dreday]

well the fda is different than seagrest. they are not held to the same standards, and like most companies if they are not forced to do it they wont.

It is a big concern but i doubt it will change. i know the hobby is suffering from it but lack of knowledge on the hobbyist/consumer side does not help matters. if customers are not complaining then they are not gonna change.

and most of us on here are not major customers. we can not compete with petcos and petsmarts around the nation. they ship out some 50-60 boxes a day, more on busy days. those major stores are not complaining, in fact the rely on seagrest info on some of their products.

then you see the cups of salt in the tanks at the store to keep the fish healthy.... ugh. and thats the info that the head vet guy in cali says is the proper thing to do. but go and check their conductivity, its like 4000-5000, and you wonder why the fish die in our tanks.

[chc]

Good points.

I guess what it comes down to for me is I'm not going to buy any fish from the LFS that is supplied by Segrest. The tank of citrinellus always did look exactly like the tank full of labiatus anyway! Hahahahaha!

[fishmaven]

Despite all of the potential opportunities for mix-ups, I just don't find it to be a valid excuse for vendors not to be held responsible for selling what they say that they're selling.

Imagine if the fish were food fish: You order a box of tilapia filets and you get salmon. "Sorry label got wet and we got confused," ain't gonna cut it to the restaurant that ordered the tilapia. Matt
Sorry Matt,
IME, people rarely complain when the error is in their favor. Here in Houston tilapia is a lot less expensive than salmon. Salmon dishes sell for more at restaurants here too. In tropical fish terms it's like ordering neons and getting cardinals.

In a typical wholesale facility the fish are there for 2-4 days, then you're out of stock. If you're a walk-in you know what you're getting. You looked at it. If ordering by phone or online you took someone's word that vouched for the product- you DID verify your order when you placed it, right? If not, who's at fault?

If after contacting the seller, they're unwilling to fix the problem, you find a different supplier. (That's one reason I don't share who I used to buy from. That info cost me lots of money over the years. To get that info you must pay consulting fees.)

One thing that's missing from this thread… why is it that in Europe fish suppliers are treated like gods and here in the States they're considers whores and hustlers??
Dan

[chc]

I don't know how they act in Europe.....but here, if it quacks like a duck.....!

I'm so tired of seeing shipment after shipment of diseased fish arriving at my LFS only to see the supplier (not Segrest in this case) treated like a icon of the hobby as he explains away the reason as "polluted Central American waters." Hustler for sure!

Plus, we're not talking about Segrest substituting product to retailers. The information I posted was from their "Hobbyist" section, and was provided for educational purposes. They posted incorrect info, incorrect photos, and lots and lots of tattooed/hybridized/mutilated fish (with no background info describing just how such fish are produced). Knowing Segrest's position in the industry, I was surprised at the shoddy effort and apparent willingness to sell whatever makes a buck.

[fishmaven]

… we're not talking about Segrest substituting product to retailers. The information I posted was from their "Hobbyist" section, and was provided for educational purposes…
If you'd added that in your first post I wouldn't have gotten involved in the thread.
Dan

[chc]

Sorry. I thought that was evident.

No matter. It doesn't invalidate the rest of the conversation though. I don't mind if it gets off course a bit. Specifically, I wonder what's behind your assessment of Euro vs. American sellers.


Also, I'm curious why more sellers haven't exploited what I see as a potential distinct competitive advantage: WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) advertising. Photo taking and online posting has never been easier. It costs practically nothing and would certainly allow for premium pricing.

A few reefers do this quite a bit now with corals, inverts, fish, and other marine stock. I always feel like I'm taking a chance ordering online from most vendors, and what I'm usually interested in isn't available locally. It's to the point that my purchases are restricted to whoever will show me a photo and a few trusted friends.

It's really surprising (shocking?) to me to hear some of the unprofessional (rude?) responses you get when asking simple questions of some online sellers. It's as if you're questioning their character or something. WYSISYG selling and a basic question and answer forum would seem to provide a real selling advantage. Plus, the whole process could be farmed out for nothing (or next to nothing) to any of a host of fish crazy techno-types. I know I'd participate for some good deals or just a first look at new livestock!

[fishmaven]

Sorry. I thought that was evident.
Not to me.

Specifically, I wonder what's behind your assessment of Euro vs. American sellers.
In Europe it's the hardware sellers that scare people, knock-offs, etc.

I'm curious why more sellers haven't exploited what I see as a potential distinct competitive advantage: WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) advertising. Photo taking and online posting has never been easier. It costs practically nothing and would certainly allow for premium pricing.
You're kidding, right? That doesn't even happen here. Not only are no photos of the fish being sold present. No references to a place where a photo of what the fish will grow into is posted.

A few reefers do this quite a bit now with corals, inverts, fish, and other marine stock. I always feel like I'm taking a chance ordering online from most vendors, and what I'm usually interested in isn't available locally. It's to the point that my purchases are restricted to whoever will show me a photo and a few trusted friends.
Good, that means you've at least been listening to someone that doesn't want you to get burned. I'd be jealous about sharing those sources too, you don't want someone cherry picking your suppliers. As I've said previously, I don't even buy at auctions. When I go it's to make contacts with potential suppliers that will ship to me.

It's really surprising (shocking?) to me to hear some of the unprofessional (rude?) responses you get when asking simple questions of some online sellers. It's as if you're questioning their character or something. WYSISYG selling and a basic question and answer forum would seem to provide a real selling advantage. Plus, the whole process could be farmed out for nothing (or next to nothing) to any of a host of fish crazy techno-types. I know I'd participate for some good deals or just a first look at new livestock!
Smart sellers ask questions too. I still buy/sell aquarium books. Most of the books I have for sale now are SW. I'm careful about who I buy from AND who I sell to. I've been offered things here for 4 times what I can buy from other sources. So even the places you'd think would be safe from rip-offs may not be. I try to provide a good description of ANY book I sell and expect the same from the ones I buy from. Still sometimes I get screwed. One individual has owed me $200 since either ICC 1 or 2. Now, I wouldn't cross the room to speak to him. I'd bet many of the members here know him and would be confident that dealing with him would be safe.

BTW, MFK recently banned a vendor. Apparently there were too many complaints.
Dan

[chc]

Which vendor did MFK ban? I got banned for complaining about one (reason given: "member requires too much time" or something like that), and I wonder if it was related....?

[jgentry]

Which vendor did MFK ban? I got banned for complaining about one (reason given: "member requires too much time" or something like that), and I wonder if it was related....?

Different vendor. I can't remember the name of the vendor. He had a ton of bad reviews and kept taking peoples money without sending the fish.

[dreday]

nate something... seen it on fb.

any who i wont be going to seagrest this week got to many things going on. i am in charge of our clubs annual auction and i have to drive around on frid and pick up fish all over florida.

but i do get to pick out fish at don conkels farm in oldsmare on fri.... :p:p

i missed out last year but get to go this year. cant wait!!!!! got a lot of work to do but it is gonna be worth it.

whenever i get back out there i will let yall know. ;)

[chc]

Thanks Andres. The DC trip sounds fun!

[Mrfiremouth]

Massive Aggression I think was the store. Sold Rays and hard to get fish but never delivered.

[smitty]

I found out a long time ago that you have to educate yourself in this hobby. What first taught me that lesson was when I went to a fish store for info and what they said seemed so off the wall I said to myself I do not know the answer but I know what they just said can not be true. I recently heard a guy say in the fish store to a customer that if you use this type of charcoal you really don't have to do water changes. I said to myself is he saying that so he can sell her more fish in a couple of weeks. I have learned more from this forum in a year from people who really care than I have learned in all my years going to fish stores and pet shops.

[fishmaven]

I found out a long time ago that you have to educate yourself in this hobby. What first taught me that lesson was when I went to a fish store for info and what they said seemed so off the wall I said to myself I do not know the answer but I know what they just said can not be true. I recently heard a guy say in the fish store to a customer that if you use this type of charcoal you really don't have to do water changes. I said to myself is he saying that so he can sell her more fish in a couple of weeks. I have learned more from this forum in a year from people who really care than I have learned in all my years going to fish stores and pet shops.
Smitty,
This would be a good beginning for a completely different thread.

While the ACA is examining our website's future one of the things tossed into the discussion was trying to appeal to ALL fish hobbyists. That's certainly a monster niche. Covering the basics is definitely important but it has it's challenges. An example: Recently a thread popped up about getting an aquarium for a child. I think a 10g tank a poor choice but the majority disagreed. Another: many disagree on using salt in an a FW aquarium.

Despite the number of bad places to shop there good ones too. If we were to promote the better places and the reason we prefer them, it's possible some of the others would change their advice or tactics. At some point, I'd like to see a list of the better stores in the major areas and some sort of star rating by our members.

BTW, you must have run across at least one good source of info. You own an Eheim, even multiples of them. Unfortunately, you also own Fluvals. <_<
Dan

[chc]

Smitty,
This would be a good beginning for a completely different thread.

While the ACA is examining our website's future one of the things tossed into the discussion was trying to appeal to ALL fish hobbyists. That's certainly a monster niche. Covering the basics is definitely important but it has it's challenges. An example: Recently a thread popped up about getting an aquarium for a child. I think a 10g tank a poor choice but the majority disagreed. Another: many disagree on using salt in an a FW aquarium.

Despite the number of bad places to shop there good ones too. If we were to promote the better places and the reason we prefer them, it's possible some of the others would change their advice or tactics. At some point, I'd like to see a list of the better stores in the major areas and some sort of star rating by our members.

BTW, you must have run across at least one good source of info. You own an Eheim, even multiples of them. Unfortunately, you also own Fluvals. <_<
Dan


Great reply! So much to love there.....especially the Eheim vs Fluval truth.

Count me in as one of those that thinks a 10g is a bad tank to start with. The smaller the tank, the more likely (approaching a near certainty!) that a beginner will quickly fail. Starting small is a good idea in many areas of life, but not with aquariums!


Going back to Smitty's remark about the LFS owner, I'd feel much better about them if I really believed they were cunning enough to be so sneaky. Unfortunately, I just think it's plain ignorance.

They aren't all bad though. The best LFS near me is run by a gentleman with a marine biology background with the help of his family. The most refreshing thing to hear is when, from time to time, one of his employees says, "I'm not really sure. Let's go ask Leroy." They aren't just spouting off any answer that comes to mind like so many other LFS employees. They either know, or they don't know (and Leroy pretty much ALWAYS knows!).

Being a small operation and not a national chain, their prices are generally quite a bit higher than some other places, a result of their inability to buy in volume like the big guys. Still, I relish the chance to spend more on the same item with them than with their competitors based solely on their professionalism.

[smitty]

First let me point out I did not spend my hard earned money on either Fluval. However I do not think it is a bad filter which was a suprise to me. I also get the point that we will from time to time run across different opinions. Chris you see how you mentioned that Leroy's employees will tell you I am not really sure. Many people enter into the hobby with very limited info and knowledge. A person in that situation will assume that a LFS is the place for the answer. Just like if you were fixing a pipe in your house you would assume you would get a good answer from a plummer. Though two different plummers can come up with two different ways to fix the problem. Both are right, and neither are wrong. A LFS had a girl there that had a good basic knowledge about fish keeping alot she learned on her own and some she obtained from others. She would tell people well that fish is not compatible with what you have, but how about these fish they should be okay. Well the customer was not interested in the other fish. So no sale. She would clash with the higher ups because there point of view was that her job is to sell fish. For many I think it is about the dollar.That is how it is in most businesses. Some people are passionate about what they do many are not.

[nuth88]

Massive Aggression...

:o

[Shifty]

Yep just like petsmarts white tipped sharks... They do great in freshwater as juvi's... But need a very large brackish tank as they age....

[Red Tiger]

Massive Aggression I think was the store. Sold Rays and hard to get fish but never delivered.


He was in a major car accident and everything went down hill from there. We booted him off aquatic terrors to and he was 1/4 owner (i think). That was my understanding of what happened.

[Red Tiger]

I have to agree with chris' original point. If your too busy to correctly identify the fish you are selling, then your in the wrong business. Responsibility maybe partially on the consumer, but you can't expect mrs. stay at home mom at the pet store with her begging kid to do too much research. I have great danes and I can tell you if I brought home a dane and it was actually a chihuaha, I can tell you Kiss' "All Hell's Breaking Loose" would be my theme song. This just my opinion.

Great Thread Chris!!

[Lotsapetsgarfhts]

Any aquarium for a child is the right size 49 years ago this past Christmas I received my first aquarium. It is (note I said is) a 7 gallon metal framed tank with a slate bottom. There is a stainless steel hood that has been rewired so many times I couldn't even tell you how many. I still have the Star airpump and it still works, modern day diaphrams fit it. The heater was broken long ago and the original box filter got pitched when I got the undergravel filter. The undergravel filter was thrown away when I got a Dynoflow power filter. The aquarium is up and running now with a small school of White Clouds, a small green aneus cory and a small bristlenose pleco.

Now I'll ask you what is the right size aquarium for a child?