My Severums

[Donna]

Hi Everyone,
Can some answer a question for me?
I'm new to all this aquarium hobby stuff, but we have an 84 gallon aquarium set up. We have 4 clown loaches, and 3 Severums. 2- Green Notatus and 1- Gold. The Gold is a male, and one of the green is a male and the other a female.
We just got them Friday evening, and for about 24 hours they were all fine. Swimming around, and checking out the new tank. Then Sunday morning, the green notatus female started chasing the green notatus male. She won't let him swim around the tank. She keeps chasing him till he retreats to a corner, behind some plants. She's fine with the Gold male, and in fact they swim around together all day, but the minute the green male comes out, she chases him till he goes back in a corner.
They are all around 4" long, give or take.
I'm wondering if this domanant female will eventually at least allow the submissive male out and around without chasing him?
I realize this is what cichlids do, but it seems a shame that this poor fish has to live it's life in a corner, behind plants. Just wondering if this is just because they are all new, and will eventually even out, or can I expect it to always be like this?

[bobrfish]

Are you sure H. notatus, green are male and female?

[Dean Hougen]

I'm not sure how long your 84 gallon tank is but I'd guess that it is less than 6'. With anything shorter than that, it is likely that you'll have problems with more than a single pair of Heros. Still, you could try putting some tall visual barriers and territory markers about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way from one end. The pair might let the other fish live there without too much abuse. Might. Might not.


Dean

[Donna]

Hi Bob,
Well, I'm pretty sure they are. One of the green ones doesn't have any markings to speak of on it's head, and not as much color, and the other one has lots of squiggly's on it's face, and head.....and that one is also more color, too.

Dean, if you go to my profile, you can see my tank setup, and I do have a rather big artificial tree trunk, with lots of holes in it, in the middle of the tank. I would think that would act as some kind of barrier, as far as territory goes; And yes, my tank is 48" long.....so it's less than 6 feet.

[Mikeinco]

I tried to keep a small group of Severums one Notatus, Rotkeil and a Red Together in a 90 and It worked for a while but once they reached around 4 inches they started having aggression issues. I eventually had to split them up. Your tank set up is relatively new so I would give them some time and see if they can work things out. Try rearranging the tank and see if that helps. Could it be possible that you have 2 female Notatus? Welcome to the forum.

[bobrfish]

Not with Heros, but with other genera I have expierenced dominant females even when the male is larger. They failed to bred in three years as adults when kept in 125 gal tank.
Sold them to someone with 300 gal tank, maybe he will have better luck.

[Donna]

Mike,
I guess anything is possible, but from what I've been told, and what I've read online, it would seem I have a male and female notatus. The female seems to be the dominant one, chasing the male.
The reason I'm saying they're male and female, is because the one that I'm saying is female is more pale in color, and doesn't have the squiggly lines on her face, or cheeks.......and the one I'm saying is male has lots of squiggly lines on his face, and his color is more vibrant. That's what I'm judging the sex on. Does that sound right to you?
As I said, I also have a gold severum, and I'm thinking that one is a male, because again, he doesn't have the squiggly lines on his face, and cheeks. His color isn't really bright either, although he is gorgeous.
He's the one the dominant notatus seems to prefer, and she's chasing the other notatus, and keeping him in a corner.
Last night he did get brave enough on a few occasions to venture out from his corner, and sometimes, for about 20 or 30 seconds, the dominant female wouldn't chase him.....but those moments were few and far between.
I guess my question is, do you think there's a good chance these two will work their issues out, and eventually live somewhat peacefully in my tank, or should I just find a new home for the submissive one now? I hate to see him living in a corner like that.

[Dean Hougen]

... Dean, if you go to my profile, you can see my tank setup, and I do have a rather big artificial tree trunk, with lots of holes in it, in the middle of the tank. I would think that would act as some kind of barrier, as far as territory goes; And yes, my tank is 48" long.....so it's less than 6 feet.

Donna,

Thanks for the suggestion to look in your profile for pics. I hadn't thought of that.

Because that log is right in the middle of the tank and pretty low, I think the dominant Heros will regard it as the center of a territory, rather than a boundary between territories. Maybe instead you could build a wall out of those tall plants. I wouldn't put them in the middle of the tank but, rather, towards one end. Still, the shape of that tank is very showy but doesn't really work well for establishing multiple territories.

Good luck!


Dean

[Donna]

Hi Dean,
Thank you so much for the suggestions, and I'll do that this weekend. Hopefully it will work. I'll let you know.

Donna

[pitdogg2]

Not trying to hijack the thread, But does anybody know the names of the Rotkeil's? Mine were sold as Orange shouldered Rotkeil severum.
just would like to know the Heros _ _ _ _ _ whatever name if they've given them one yet. For me it seems that any that aren't green or gold have been given the "Rotkiel" name.
thanks

[Donna]

Dean,
I took your advice, and changed the tank around tonight. I put the big log on one end of the tank, and made a curtain out of the plants, on the other end. It's been a few hours since I did it, but already the one who's being bullied is out simming around a little more. At one point the bully even tryed to chase him, and he stood his ground, and didn't run away. It only lasted for a few seconds though. I know it's too soon to tell yet, but it looks promising.......at this point.
This just might work.......thank you so much for your advice, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[bobrfish]

They are considered an undefined species. A report by Mike Jacobs in Tampa Bay club states Mike Jacobs and Charlie Goss were first to import Heros sp. "rotkiel" from Iquitos, Peru. These imports bred in 2005.

[Dean Hougen]

It may just be that the tank rearrangement put them on a more even footing (finning?) for a while (neither felt like the tank was its own) and it may go back to the way it was. However, it just might work. I will definitely keep my fingers crossed as well!


Dean

[Chromedome]

A recent paper was written about the genus Heros, it placed the Rotkeil in the species efasciatus, and also synonymized appendiculatus into that species. H. notatus was restricted to specimens from the Guianas, I believe. There are some who still want to debate the conclusions of this paper, but this is the current state of the genus.

The green severum of the OP also appear to be efasciatus rather than notatus, but the photos are of the tank and it's a little hard to say for sure; I couldn't even sex them in the photos. The "bully" seems to have chosen the Gold as a mate - it is a domestic color form of the same species - and the other green is not going to be welcome so long as that pair bond holds. They may come to a truce, I wish you luck, but the odds are probably against it.

[Donna]

Chromedome( I don't know you're real name)
I bought the two Notatus from our local fish store, and they tell me the two greens are wild caught notatus. One is definatly a male, and the other a female. You can tell by the squiggly markings (or lack of them) around the face area. It's the female who's doing the bullying, and yes, has apparently chosen the Gold male (lack of squiggly markings around the face) as her mate. The other green male seems a tiny bit better in coming out and around, now that I've changed the tank around, although the female will still chase him..eventually.
Now my question would be.....do you think if I put two of another species in there, it would distract the dominant female? Like maybe she wouldn't be AS agressive toward the other green male?
If you think that might help, what species would you suggest? I was thinking maybe 2 firemouths, but I know they're even more aggressive than the severums, and I was hoping maybe I could find two that weren't so aggressive.
Let me know what you guys think?

[Mikeinco]

Mine got along in a 90 gallon for almost a year then all of a sudden the Rotkeil starting harrasing the Red Severum and I couldn't stand for that. I know the Red is a line breed or at least thats what I am led to believe but it is by far the most beautiful of my Severums. I now have each of them in a different tank and I'm very impressed with the Notatus too. I hope you're able to make it work Donna but just in case do you have another tank if you need to break them up?

[Donna]

No I don't have another tank. My only option would be to give him back to the fish store. I've already talked to them about the possibility, and they will take him back. I just don't want to do that, if there's any way I can make this work. I love them. That's why I thought if I put more fish, either more severums, or a different species in there with them, maybe the dominant one would find someone else to pick on too, or at least be a little more distracted. But I will take the submissive one back, if this doesn't get better in the next few weeks. I'm too much of a softie to see him picked on like this.
One other question. If I do put two more of a different species in with them, do all species pick on other species, or do they tend to just pick on their own type? If you understand what I'm asking.....lol

[Mikeinco]

No I don't have another tank. My only option would be to give him back to the fish store. I've already talked to them about the possibility, and they will take him back. I just don't want to do that, if there's any way I can make this work. I love them. That's why I thought if I put more fish, either more severums, or a different species in there with them, maybe the dominant one would find someone else to pick on too, or at least be a little more distracted. But I will take the submissive one back, if this doesn't get better in the next few weeks. I'm too much of a softie to see him picked on like this.
One other question. If I do put two more of a different species in with them, do all species pick on other species, or do they tend to just pick on their own type? If you understand what I'm asking.....lol

Donna it just depends on the indivdual fish although some species do tend to pick on their own. I wouldn't get more severums thats for sure. Its only an 84 gallon tank and severums can get rather large at least for a tank that size. You could try a few clown loaches or something along those lines. I've found that overcrowding with South Americans never really works and in some cases only makes the aggression worse. Is the Severum doing any real damage to the other fish? Of course the one getting picked on may eventually get sick due to stress but that just depends on how stressed out it is. Firemouths do stay small and might help but I kind of doubt it.

[Donna]

Hi Mike,
I do have 3 baby Clown Loaches now, and they're doing fine. The Severums don't bother them at all.
No, so far the dominant Severum isn't doing any damage to the submissive one......or not that I can see. She doesn't really pick at him, she just chases him, and once he retreats to where she wants him to go, she swims away. There's no real attacking, at this point anyway. The submissive one doesn't really seem all that stressed, or if the black bars are any indication. He only displays the bars when she's chasing him. Then they quickly disappear. Most of the time he's not display any bars. I think that means he's okay most of the time, doesn't it?
That's one of my concerns though, is that I'd rather take him back to the fish store, than see him get sick and die. But as I said, I'd rather try to get some peace in the tank first. I thought I'd give it a couple more weeks, and see how it goes, and if it's no better, than I'll probably take him back.
As I said though, since I rearranged the tank last night, the submissive one is coming out and around a little, or at least more than he was before I changed things up.. Last night while he was out and around, when the dominant one tried to chase him, he stood his ground for about 15 seconds or so, and she backed off......but eventually he did retreat to his corner again. She doesn't seem to really come in contact with him, she just wants to chase him.
The Gold severum seems to get along with both. I haven't seen any signs of aggression with him yet. He seems to like both of them.

[Donna]

Ah Ha! I think we've made some progress! :lol:
We took two of our son's Convicts (both females, I hope) to put in the tank with the Severums, and it's been about 8 hours, ( I know, that's not a long time, but at least I have some hope) and so far, the Severum that was being bullied, is now out swimming around, and quite enjoying himself. The bully Severum isn't picking on him near as much, now that he has two other new fish to chase. Hopefully it'll stay this way, because right now, we have a fairly peaceful tank. Please keep your fingers crossed for me!
It could be that the bully female Severum just needed another distraction to pick on, which in turn gave the Submissive male Severum more freedom to swim around the thank. Oh I hope so......and I hope this lasts.:)
Thank you Dean for suggesting we change the tank around, and also for everyone elses advice.

[Dean Hougen]

You're very welcome. Please keep us posted, one way or another.


Dean

[baldtaxguy]

Maybe organize the tanks setup where there are two distinct territores and maybe the dominant female with defend one and allow the other to co-exist?

[aquamojo]

Not trying to hijack the thread, But does anybody know the names of the Rotkeil's? Mine were sold as Orange shouldered Rotkeil severum.
just would like to know the Heros _ _ _ _ _ whatever name if they've given them one yet. For me it seems that any that aren't green or gold have been given the "Rotkiel" name.
thanks


According to the Cichlid Room Companion, the fish is simply known as Heros Sp. "Red Shoulder".

[Donna]

Yes Baldtaxguy, Dean suggested I do that too, so I did, and also added two female convicts, and so far (keeping my fingers crossed) it's working. The tank has been rearranged since Friday evening, and we added the convicts yesterday, and so far there seems to be peace in the tank........finally. They still chase each other a little, but nothing like it was before, and everyone feels comfortable enough to swim all around the tank now, so things are looking up.
Thank you for your advice.

[aquamojo]

I've found that putting some kind of a "barrier" in the middle of the tank helps the fish to define territories...or at least appears so. Nothing elaborate. A single piece of driftwood or a large rock works fine. That's pretty much the setup whenever I keep a resident "third wheel" cichlid in the tank. Convicts were a good idea. Good luck.

[chc]

I've found that putting some kind of a "barrier" in the middle of the tank helps the fish to define territories...or at least appears so. Nothing elaborate. A single piece of driftwood or a large rock works fine. That's pretty much the setup whenever I keep a resident "third wheel" cichlid in the tank. Convicts were a good idea. Good luck.

That's a good way to manage behavior for sure.