Red Ceibal or Oblongums...

[CrazyFishLadyJulez]

Hmm.. I am planning a "new" setup for my 55g. and I cannot decide whether I want to fill it with Red Ceibals, or Oblongums...

This will be a species tank, with hopes of it becoming a breding tank...

[fishmaven]

Julie,
For me it would boil down to the color. If color will be your deciding factor, pick the one you like the best.

An alternative, be like most here… which fish has the chance of the highest return on your investment? Generally, the newer fish has the most bang-per-buck initially. If, on the other hand, the newest one is quite a bit more aggressive, you may lose a few until you hit the right combination.
Dan

[CrazyFishLadyJulez]

Julie,
For me it would boil down to the color. If color will be your deciding factor, pick the one you like the best.

An alternative, be like most here… which fish has the chance of the highest return on your investment? Generally, the newer fish has the most bang-per-buck initially. If, on the other hand, the newest one is quite a bit more aggressive, you may lose a few until you hit the right combination.
Dan

so, which do you think would have the highest return??:confused:

[mikeg2929]

The minute folks start talking investment and fish is usually the time I run for cover. Its a pet. Its a hobby. 99% of the time it isnt an investment.

Pick the fish YOU like. The chanchito types are a great fish to play with. They breed like rats, have great color and are pretty active.

You will never make a dime on them, or most fish. Keep them for the enjoyment and your expectations will be easier to manage.

[Dean Hougen]

I agree. I've witnessed lots of folks who see "new" fish sell for big dollars and imagine that they can make big dollars breeding whatever is new, rare, and hot. They run out and buy something very expensive and work very hard to quickly breed it only to discover that very few people want the fry, or lots of other breeders with $$$ in their eyes had the same dream and are now selling tons of fry and the market is over saturated, or both.

In my opinion, you are much better off going with your interests. You won't make money but you wouldn't in any case and if you buy fish you like, you won't be disappointed that you didn't make a buck on them.


Dean

[fishmaven]

Dean and Mike,
My experience at choosing the best investment has a poor track record. I did choose at least one right among many that didn't work out. Telling Julie that the crew here hasn't done that or at least doesn't do that now is misleading at best. Despite our experiences and the resolve NOT to choose based on the return of the right choice I think it requires conscious effort by each of us to avoid giving into it, even now. I know math professors that buy lottery tickets, the chance escape offered by a winning dollar purchase is just too great.

Julie,
It's based on projections of what you feel fry or larger offspring will bring at the time of sale. Those of us that have been at this a while know that it's a crap shoot. Most of us have been burned by holding on to the stock we've produced too long, only to have someone release their stock just prior to our selling point.

Some reserve fishkeeping as a hobby. When I was a hobbyist I enjoyed my hobby very much. I gave fish to my friends. I shared tips and sources. When I made the choice to make tropical fish my business my enjoyment diminished over time. I guarded my tips and advice. I no longer gave fish away. I still rarely give away sources that I spent time and money to develop. Few people in the industry avoid all it's pitfalls. Most would have made much more income following some other occupation, myself included. I envy the joy of a relative beginner at a new purchase or spawn. I don't get as much out of it now.

One of the things I hated about working, at any position, in a retail tropical fish store was having customers come in and ask me to tell them what they'd like. It was a very common thing to happen. When I could, I'd make myself scarce. When I couldn't, I handled as best I could by asking questions and offering choices rather than limiting my opinion to one species or specimen.

Sorry, I have to punk out and leave it to you.
Dan

[jb1edlover]

Dan, what a revelation! After reading this post a lot of your posts make sense to me now. So if you're no longer a hobbyist what was all the ranting about earlier over the fish show judging?

This right here is a major problem with Fish store owners and fish keepers....

When I made the choice to make tropical fish my business my enjoyment diminished over time. I guarded my tips and advice.


I hope I never get to this point:
I envy the joy of a relative beginner at a new purchase or spawn. I don't get as much out of it now.


I've been keeping cichlids just under 7 years and I have over 50 tanks. I get tickled over every spawn just like it was the first. I freely give away cichlids and information. There are LFS owners that still have passion and drive in the hobby.

Lastly, I disagree with this advice totally....
An alternative, be like most here… which fish has the chance of the highest return on your investment?
Do you really think "Most" are in the hobby for the money? If so I think we've found the source of "ACA's decreasing numbers"
JB

[Narwhal72]

Having raised the Red Ceibal myself I would vote for them. They are very attractive (when spawning) and not so bad looking when not. The "fry hanging" behaviour is also very fun to watch. They are easy to breed and will do so prolifically. The problem is that you can raise so many fish that you can make it impossible to sell them. I had a hard time giving them away!
Andy

[CrazyFishLadyJulez]

I know I will not get rich off fish.. lol

I just want something that noone else around here has, so that I could possably get store credit at the lfs, so I can get more fish stuff... lol Im just trying to figure out a way to "support my habit"

I know that I will not make any kind of "real" money.. I am in this hobby because I have a true love of animals, and keeping a stable, healthy fish tank thriving without any casualties is alot more rewarding than feeding a cat and changing the litter box...

I am going to school for P.A.A... hopefully that will bring in the bacon.. my fiance is a welder, so...

This is simply a love... an obsession... an addiction....;););)

[CrazyFishLadyJulez]

Also, the reason I was asking, was because I have not been able to find very much information on eather the red ceibal, or the oblongum....

[fishmaven]

Dan, what a revelation! After reading this post a lot of your posts make sense to me now. So if you're no longer a hobbyist what was all the ranting about earlier over the fish show judging?

This right here is a major problem with Fish store owners and fish keepers....


I hope I never get to this point:


I've been keeping cichlids just under 7 years and I have over 50 tanks. I get tickled over every spawn just like it was the first. I freely give away cichlids and information. There are LFS owners that still have passion and drive in the hobby.

Lastly, I disagree with this advice totally....

Do you really think "Most" are in the hobby for the money? If so I think we've found the source of "ACA's decreasing numbers"
JB
Wow… Don't hold back! Considering we've never to my knowledge met, it's evident there's some issues here.

I didn't say I wasn't a hobbyist. Too many things have come between the initial rush of fishkeeping and where I am now.

"So if you're no longer a hobbyist what was all the ranting about earlier over the fish show judging?"

I don't think that whether I ever enter another show or not influences my opinion that the guidelines be published prior to showing and the judging be consistent from year to year. If stating the fact that despite my questions about judging standards over the years and that it's never been addressed by the ACA qualifies as a "rant", then I claim it as my right as an ACA member.

"I've been keeping cichlids just under 7 years and I have over 50 tanks. I get tickled over every spawn just like it was the first. I freely give away cichlids and information. There are LFS owners that still have passion and drive in the hobby."

Great. I've been keeping fish since 1967. I've been involved in the industry since 1970. I still give advice to other fishkeepers. I've mentioned that buying fish at auction is a poor place to buy healthy fish. I've told how to deal with vendors at a convention or seminars fairly. I've also dealt openly with how to choose products that work and have the best value. I do wish I could openly tell buyers some of the fish vendors to avoid but don't wish to be involved in any legal battles. I don't tell store owners where to buy fish or products. I don't share store designs or tips to potential new store owners without payment. I don't give manufacturers free product reviews, if they're willing to pay some, they can pay me. If I didn't still have passion about fishkeeping I wouldn't be here on the ACA Forum or participate in the rants you accuse me of.

My drive?? Unlike some here, I don't hold myself up as a "cichlid expert". I am, however, an expert in aquariology. It's rare that I get a fish and lose it to a disease, even in a store environment. I've spent quite a bit of time here addressing fish health and nutrition. I don't participate in local aquarium clubs. My presence there disrupts the meeting. I can't slip in and out, so I avoid it. If, as you'd believe, it were about me, I'd go and hold court at each of the meetings.

There's no going back. I'll never be a "regular hobbyist" again.

Money?? I'll stand by my statement that money influences the purchase of fish. I've seen some that buy at auctions that wish to be seen as the one that bought the most expensive fish. We applaud their accomplishments. I worked for a livestock wholesaler that had customs confiscate a fish because they thought it contained drugs, just because of it's price. I've purchased fish because I could make immediate return and profit on the purchase. I've purchased fish that a wholesaler wouldn't reduce a price on and immediately sold them below his price just to upset other store owners. That's what you do in business.

You question the word "most". Yes, I feel that MOST serious hobbyists have to address the question of profit, even if it's just to help pay for some of the stuff they'd otherwise have to buy. Yes, choosing between two fish species may come down to that. Julie has even said it influences her.

Yes, at some point, money may influence the fish you purchase. Leaving San Antonio for Virginia, are you planning to take more Victorians because you know they'll be rare in Virginia?
Dan

[jb1edlover]

Dan in Virginia, Victorians are very rare. Then again so are cichlids, minus the retail pet stores that carry your basic cichlid.

We'll never see eye to eye on this one...
I've mentioned that buying fish at auction is a poor place to buy healthy fish.

What auctions do you go to? Some of the best and most healthiest fish I've ever gotten was from an auctions. You're quick to label. Maybe you just roll with bad fish keepers.... I've seen more dead fish in LFS's than I've ever seen at auctions. The important thing is buy fish from auctions from folks you know and trust, sorta like you should do from Pet stores...

I'm also sorry you can't be part of a local fish club... lots of good, fun and memories in those...
JB

[fishmaven]

JB,
If you've gotten me confused with owners of "pet stores" you're way off base. I've designed and built pet stores for others but never owned one myself. My stores were always "fish specialty" stores. The last one I was associated with was Neptunes Garden in Houston. I designed and built it. I also managed it for years until the surviving owner sold it. Like many owners of fish stores the new owner paid too much, used most of their cash as a down payment and then ran the store into the ground.

IMO, it was a showcase. Ask around. You didn't find dead fish there.
Dan

[Matt Quinn]

Back to chanchitos please ;)

Matt

[CrazyFishLadyJulez]

What the hell...??:confused:

I didnt want to start a freakin war... just was interested in getting some info??..??...

My bad...I apoligize..

:eek::eek:

***IM SO CONFUSED***

[CrazyFishLadyJulez]

Back to chanchitos please ;)

Matt


thank you!!!

[Mikeinco]

I would go with the Oblongums. I have both and although they are both really nice fish i just like the temperment of the Oblongums better.

[CrazyFishLadyJulez]

I would go with the Oblongums. I have both and although they are both really nice fish i just like the temperment of the Oblongums better.


Sence you have experiance, could you give me some info on them?? Such as proper substrate, proper feeding, etc... I cannot find info on them at all...

[Mikeinco]

Sence you have experiance, could you give me some info on them?? Such as proper substrate, proper feeding, etc... I cannot find info on them at all...

neither are fussy when it comes to feeding. I give mine a combination of NLS flakes, Thera pellets, bloodworms, and sometimes veggies but they don't seem to prefer the veggies lol. My substrate is sand and my PH is around 6.9 to 7, basically tap with lots of driftwood. They will take most foods. You won't have any issues with either.

[Matt Quinn]

The "red ceibal" are from Eastern Uruguay (where it gets cold in the winter) so are quite flexible with regard to temperature.

No one knows where oblongum are from (not Uruguay...I suspect Southern Brazil) but prefer more tropical temps and don't like a cool down in the winter.

Both are voracious eaters (mine love live red wigglers, NLS, flake, etc.). I keep both (seperate tanks) with a limited amount of sandy gravel, some flowerpots, plastic plants and PVC tubes.

Felipe's site has a great array of pictures of Uruguay's chanchitos:
http://www.aqvaterra.com/cichlids_other_fishes.php
http://www.aqvaterra.com/map_australoheros.php

As you can see, oblongum and red ceibal are only two of MANY different varieties of chanchitos (red ceibal being the only one that's farm bred, to my knowledge).

Ken Davis (fishfarm), Scott Arney and others sometime have extras or fry from the fish that they collect in Uruguay.

They're some of my favorites and I have way too many types of these guys!

Matt

[NVCichlids]

I am trying to find pictures of what an oblongum looks like as I am not familiar with it (nor am I familiar at all with central americans... but a this might help me start in that direction!)

[Mikeinco]

The "red ceibal" are from Eastern Uruguay (where it gets cold in the winter) so are quite flexible with regard to temperature.

No one knows where oblongum are from (not Uruguay...I suspect Southern Brazil) but prefer more tropical temps and don't like a cool down in the winter.

Both are voracious eaters (mine love live red wigglers, NLS, flake, etc.). I keep both (seperate tanks) with a limited amount of sandy gravel, some flowerpots, plastic plants and PVC tubes.

Felipe's site has a great array of pictures of Uruguay's chanchitos:
http://www.aqvaterra.com/cichlids_other_fishes.php
http://www.aqvaterra.com/map_australoheros.php

As you can see, oblongum and red ceibal are only two of MANY different varieties of chanchitos (red ceibal being the only one that's farm bred, to my knowledge).

Ken Davis (fishfarm), Scott Arney and others sometime have extras or fry from the fish that they collect in Uruguay.

They're some of my favorites and I have way too many types of these guys!

Matt
Good points Matt. I totally forgot about the temp for the Reds. I actually had my oblongums in a tank without a heater for a while and as soon as i added a heater they colored up big time. They seemed to do fine when I didn't have a heater though.

[Matt Quinn]

Yes - the oblongums definitely don't need super high temps but mine quit breeding at below 75 or so...

My other chanchitos (Uruguayan ones) usually just take a good water change to get in the mood. I've found them to be not so good parents...so artificial rasining the fry is necessary...and too much time for me (with baby twins, lots of work, etc.). Great fish, though!

Here's a post from MFK on one of the ones from Northern Uruguay that I have: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326251&highlight=australoheros

Matt

Good points Matt. I totally forgot about the temp for the Reds. I actually had my oblongums in a tank without a heater for a while and as soon as i added a heater they colored up big time. They seemed to do fine when I didn't have a heater though.

[NVCichlids]

wow, those are very neat looking. As far as the one's (visually) that I like more would be the red ceibals, but then again I do not know their personallities, which to me is everything!

[Matt Quinn]

Here are some (bad) pictures of my pair of oblongums...

Matt

[NVCichlids]

Those are really cool, I will admit my vote is for them!

How big do they end up getting>?

[Matt Quinn]

I have a monster male pushing 6"...

[CrazyFishLadyJulez]

Thanks for all the info!! You guys are awesome!! Im going to get some this weekend.. probably the obliquidens... how many can I get away with in a 55? I think Im going to get 10 in hopes of getting atleast 2 pairs...

[Matt Quinn]

I'd go with no more than 2 pairs of the oblongum in a 55g...and mix in some other fish...

Matt

[CrazyFishLadyJulez]

They will be about 1 inch babys... so after they pair off, i will sell the "extras"..

What other fish can I put them with??

[Matt Quinn]

I keep mine with Laetecara flavilabrus and Geo "Bahia Red", but Gymnogeos, decent sized tetras, livebearers, etc. will work.

They will get punked by central americans or other more aggressive cichlids.

Mine got overmatched by the Laetecara when trying to defend their fry...

Matt

[CrazyFishLadyJulez]

I keep mine with Laetecara flavilabrus and Geo "Bahia Red", but Gymnogeos, decent sized tetras, livebearers, etc. will work.

They will get punked by central americans or other more aggressive cichlids.

Mine got overmatched by the Laetecara when trying to defend their fry...

Matt

do you have pics? I have no idea what they are.. lol